Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
If you had access to a Time Machine, and cloak of invisibility, I wonder what a modern physiatrist who was allowed to observe Mac in private and public would make of him, and what his diagnosis would be. As for the meeting between Phillips and MacArthur, not only was it considered to be good manners, it also gave Phillips a chance to meet with his opposite number Hart. And allowed him to judge just how much reliability he could place on information he received from the Philippines. The fact that Hart decided to inform Phillips of the recently received war warning signal, without seeking authorisation first, shows that these two will as far as is possible and political considerations allow be able to cooperate. Hart a man who is very tired by now, especially of Mac and the foolish attitude of Washington, has found potentially a friend, unfortunately he is not going to get the time for this friendship to develop.

RR.
 
MWI 41120218 Operation Bullring

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
1941, Tuesday 02 December;

The clean olive coloured Humber Snipe turned into the naval base, and was waved through the checkpoint, driving on down to the main office building, where it slowed to a halt, a smart Royal Marine sprung to the car, opening a rear door, allowing Lord Gort to get out. Vice Admiral Layton, in full dress uniform, was waiting at the entrance for him, “Lord Gort, a pleasure to see you Sir, do come inside” and he led Gort, and a couple of aides in.

They sat at a lovely big polished cherry table, Layton at the head, hosting, with on one side of the table Gort and two aides, and on the other side Admiral Phillips and his two aides. Phillips had wanted Layton to attend, as he was still not totally familiar with all that had previously happened. They had all been at the War Council meeting in the morning, where the move to second degree readiness had been reviewed, and had since eaten lunch, so knowing why they were there, Layton, got straight down to business and asked Lord Gort, for the benefit of the recorded notes, to explain a little, as to why he wanted so urgent a meeting.

Lord Gort took a deep breath while sitting up straight, then leaned forward, almost conspiratorial and began to speak slowly and steady, his arms opened out, his hands making appropriate gestures to emphasise particular points as he spoke.

“Thank you, Geoffrey, as you all know, I am charged, as Commander in Chief of the Far East Command, as to maintaining a defence of Hong Kong, Borneo and Malaya, of which Singapore is a part of. I have jurisdiction over both the Land and Air forces present in those three areas, but not the Navy, which falls under your command, Admiral Phillips, making us Joint Commanders in the same theatre. Because this theatre is not in a war zone, resources are limited, both in men and material, although His Majesties Government has made massive strides in the last 12 months to improve that situation.

Owing to the great need to deploy most of the Navy in Home, Atlantic or Mediterranean waters, the defence of Malaya had been planned to be based on a deployment of a significant aircraft strength as to cause great concern to anyone who would consider attacking us. However, the RAF has also struggled to provide enough modern aircraft, and so, the Army has taken a more significant role in the defence plan than was originally planned.

Strategically, it has long been realised that a forward defence of Malaya, occupying Southern Thailand, would have major advantages, denying the enemy the port of Songkhla, forcing any force to rely on a line of supply down the nearly 600 miles of single-track railway, back up to the port of Bangkok. We have a plan, Operation Matador, to do that very thing, however it is faced with several problems.

Firstly, this would mean breaking our non-aggression treaty with Thailand, not something to be taken lightly. This could be considered only if we were on the point of certain war with Japan

Secondly, for propaganda purposes with the American public it is vitally important that we are seen in a good light, being strong is good, but being an aggressor, bullying a small independent nation, is not, and cannot be seen as the reason for causing any war with Japan. Which means we have to make an educated guess as to whether any significant Japanese seaborne force sailing into the Gulf of Siam, is actually intending to invade, and not just sabre rattling.

In addition, to effectively oppose any invasions, ideally, we must begin our occupation 48 hours ahead of any landings, to give our forces the time needed to move forward and secure the port of Songkhla, the airfields at Songkhla and Pattani, and create a defensive line in the Kra Isthmus. This all makes the decision of launching Operation Matador as extremely doubtful, and indeed, at the moment, Winston and the CoS, haven’t given me authority to make such a decision.

However, up to now our planners have worked with the constraint of having no effective South China Sea force to threaten any invasion force on the seas. Working with Vice Admiral Layton here, we have been able to plan limited operations on the West Coast, for example, Operation Betty, but not on the East Coast. Currently, the latest intelligence reports estimate around 180 Japanese aircraft in southern Indo-China, including 90 heavy bombers. They also think there are a minimum of two divisions and a mechanised formation, with another two or three divisions in the north. Today we have received sightings of nine submarines, 100 mile north of Cam Ranh Bay, and twenty transports anchored in the bay itself. Which is all very ominous.

However, with the arrival of Force Z, new options are open to us, and this is why I am here, asking you to spend some time deliberating the idea that with Force Z at sea, an invader now has to contend with an opposed landing both from the land/air aspect, but also from the sea. The need we have, for a 48-hour window, although still greatly advantageous, is now not so critical. I realise, I am placing an enormous burden on you, but if you were able to agree such a plan, jointly with Matador, it would be a much more attractive proposition for Winston and the Chief’s, would possibly give us a better understanding of an invader’s intent, by how they react to your presence, and make those 48 hours needed, less so”.

Lord Gort sat back, and waited, while a pregnant pause took over the room. Layton began to speak “Thank you, Lord Gort, that was most” “No it’s OK Geoffrey, I’ll take it from here” interrupted Phillips, who continued “the thought has crossed my own mind one or twice, and indeed much of these last few days have been about what ships are available to make Force Z a more potent force.

I am more than happy to look at this option, indeed as you point out, as a joint commander of the theatre, it is only right I do so. But what you are suggesting is that I, in effect, put my head in the lion’s mouth, by risking the only real force the Royal Navy has in these waters. I will have a great need of air support, and will want to know what can be offered. With that in mind, I will have my team plan such an operation, and in keeping with yours being called Matador, I shall call mine Operation Picador. Also knowing Winston and his funny ways as well as I do, I suggest we call the combined operation, and any other small ones we might have that are of a pre-emptive nature, collectively as Operation Bullring, that’s just the sort of thing Winston might embrace.

Can I suggest our planning teams meet first thing tomorrow morning, which will give both mine and yours a little breathing space today to prepare, and see what can be reasonably done, and maybe we can agree something that might fulfil our needs and satisfy Winston too? But I must warn you Lord Gort, that you may be asking too much, and I may decide a sortie north would not be the right move, which will, in effect kill your planned Operation Matador.” Phillips stopped and looked at Gort, who nodded, and at Layton, who then said “Well gentlemen, on that note, I shall arrange rooms here for the planning teams, tomorrow from 9am, if everybody is in agreement, yes, fine, well that’s settled then, we’ve all got a lot of work to do, thank you Gentlemen”
 
Interesting; it seems like the butterflies might keep Force Z further south than OTL... Though perhaps not; the closer coordination between the two commanders might actually make them more likely to take a risk, based on a hope that more joint efforts would provide enough protection. I look forward with interest to see which way they jump.
 

Coulsdon Eagle

Monthly Donor
Interesting; it seems like the butterflies might keep Force Z further south than OTL... Though perhaps not; the closer coordination between the two commanders might actually make them more likely to take a risk, based on a hope that more joint efforts would provide enough protection. I look forward with interest to see which way they jump.
It could be that, in line with Matador, Force Z sails early and catches the transports before, or in the process, of offloading their troops at Khota Baru and Singora.
 
It could be that, in line with Matador, Force Z sails early and catches the transports before, or in the process, of offloading their troops at Khota Baru and Singora
I think it's too late once the IJA lands ashore. There are too (three) many landings. The only landing that can be opposed is at Khota Baru, as that is Malayan territory.

But have Lord Gort and AVM Park done enough? If I recall, the land garrison at KB has filled in. The OTL was a close run fight at the approaches to the airfield. A fresh
battalion to close the breach might make all the difference in a failed outbreak from the beach head.
 
Interesting; it seems like the butterflies might keep Force Z further south than OTL... Though perhaps not; the closer coordination between the two commanders might actually make them more likely to take a risk, based on a hope that more joint efforts would provide enough protection. I look forward with interest to see which way they jump.
Unlike the PI, where there is the very model of a modern retired Lieutenant General? In Malaya, there seems a cognitive recognition of the differences between land and sea. Perhaps this is based a bit upon the recent RN actions off Dunkirk?

I read this as Lord Gort as imploring ADM Phillips to call off the indecision around Matador. I comprehend the presence of frustration concerning London. The Admiral can do so simply by saying Force Z is not yet operational as the Admiral sees it. It's the Admiral's call. He's a peer and there is no reason to question. Moral victories are not what will suffice in Malaya. Being chased off your second Continent in under two years isn't something His Lordship aspires to accomplish.

If Force Z stays close to home, the eastern coast of Malaya is probably secured from landings near Kuantan, Endau or Mersing. How many Brigades does that free? There is a challenge to logistics supply from Bangkok to No. Malaya. Imagine the difficulties of sending cargo vessels over a large body of water from Hainan, Haiphong, Cam Ranh Bay, Saigon and others even further away. There are RN, KMN and USN submarines. The IJN escorts are whittled down and become unavailable, not restricted availability. Drydock
not yard, if it's even available. Cancelled future expeditions to the South. Thanks Imperial Army.

If Force Z can integrate RN with USN vessels, then you are presented with three(3) national TGs to face an onslaught. Keep the Makassar Strait and the Riau Archipelago interdicted. If so, it stops or at least slows IJA/N progress towards Java. Time is on the Allies side, not the Japanese. Take any lessons learned and apply to Torch and Husky.
 
Hat n't so te
If you had access to a Time Machine, and cloak of invisibility, I wonder what a modern physiatrist who was allowed to observe Mac in private and public would make of him, and what his diagnosis would be. As for the meeting between Phillips and MacArthur, not only was it considered to be good manners, it also gave Phillips a chance to meet with his opposite number Hart. And allowed him to judge just how much reliability he could place on information he received from the Philippines. The fact that Hart decided to inform Phillips of the recently received war warning signal, without seeking authorisation first, shows that these two will as far as is possible and political considerations allow be able to cooperate. Hart a man who is very tired by now, especially of Mac and the foolish attitude of Washington, has found potentially a friend, unfortunately he is not going to get the time for this friendship to develop.

RR.
Hart was not to tired to clamber all over Marblehead and Houston, after their bombing. He was sick and tired of political
backbiting.
Remember that Hart had been exchanging staff officers monthly, with the British since the spring.
 
Doing some research in a book about the survival of the Marblehead found out that when the Boise hit the coral head, the Captain of the Marblehead headed the Board of Inquiry, who found the Boise's Captain clear of any blame , placing the cause on inadequate charts. Sadly the Captain was still relieved.
The damage was reported as between the keel and bilge keel, 116 foot overall, with an @20 foot gash.

I've also discovered that when Doorman was placed in command of ABDA afloat, Purnell and Glassford had to exchange places as 2nd in Command of ABDA afloat, and Chief of Staff USN SW Pacific, since Glassford was senior in grade to Doorman.
 
It seems there is some, small, discussion about sharing sea charts by the Dutch or the reluctance of sharing these sea charts and the notion that some shared sea charts where out of date.
To me it seems that many do not realise the massive size of the Indonesian archipellago and the immense coastline and the state of the technology, compared to our time. An other relative recent discovered factor is the constant change of te sea floor due to vulcanic activities whichare very frequent in the Indonesian archipellago.
The fact is that even in modern day ships can hit and be dammaged by uncharted sub-sea rocks. This could ulitmate led to trahidies like the Mighty Servant 2 and several other in accidents in recent years.
 
To me it seems that many do not realise the [...] the state of the technology, compared to our time. [...]
The fact is that even in modern day ships can hit and be damaged by uncharted sub-sea rocks. [...]
Agreed. About 15 years ago I was looking at Admiralty charts for the south-west approaches (west of the Channel) and noticed that there was a pinnacle marked with a depth of only about 12m (iirc), in the middle of an area with depths much, much deeper. It had only been discovered a few years before, in the early 2000s and that's in one of the most-travelled, most-surveyed parts of the world's oceans.
Charting an area with lots of reefs and, as you also noted, changes due to volcanism, is not easy even nowadays. There is a reason why most commercial ships stick to well known routes, even now, and it was even more important in the past.
This is something which can give many potential PoDs in any ATL, but particularly in ones involving conflict in rocky/reefy/etc coastal areas. Any vessel not piloted by someone with intimate local knowledge will be at risk of grounding/damage/etc - only the level of risk varies.
 
What I am seeing is that Admiral Phillips might divided Force Z in two groups. In one group would be Fifth cruiser Division (HMS Durban, Dragon, Danae) escorted by 4 destroyers (Scout, Thanet, Tenedos, and Stronghold). This group could be position at the landing points. The second group would be the main group, ready to sail if the other group needs support.
 
Even the rudiments of joint planning are a good thing. Just having a liaison officer or a joint planning team embedded in another headquarters can be invaluable when it comes to synchronizing operations and sharing intelligence. That's provided the liaison officer is on their game and the embedded headquarters doesn't lock the joint plans team in a room with no access. That also happens...
 
In my opinion,
Agreed. About 15 years ago I was looking at Admiralty charts for the south-west approaches (west of the Channel) and noticed that there was a pinnacle marked with a depth of only about 12m (iirc), in the middle of an area with depths much, much deeper. It had only been discovered a few years before, in the early 2000s and that's in one of the most-travelled, most-surveyed parts of the world's oceans.
Charting an area with lots of reefs and, as you also noted, changes due to volcanism, is not easy even nowadays. There is a reason why most commercial ships stick to well known routes, even now, and it was even more important in the past.
This is something which can give many potential PoDs in any ATL, but particularly in ones involving conflict in rocky/reefy/etc coastal areas. Any vessel not piloted by someone with intimate local knowledge will be at risk of grounding/damage/etc - only the level of risk varies.
The issue is the chart. If you give me a map and say this is current , I will take it on faith that it is correct. If you tell me, in 1942, that a chart was current as of 1905, 1915, or 1925, then I will take serious precautions, like a small boat or aircraft spotting reefs and shoals. Most of the Dut h charts were in Dutch.
 
If you give me a map and say this is current , I will take it on faith that it is correct. If you tell me, in 1942, that a chart was current as of 1905, 1915, or 1925, then I will take serious precautions
The thing is that a chart might be the most up-to-date but still have areas on it which haven't been surveyed for years or decades. I used a chart some years ago which had been updated the previous year but some of the depths on it were from soundings taken in the early 19th century, so nearly 200 years previously. I knew this because UK Admiralty charts have a diagram showing when each part of the chart was surveyed; I assume other nations' have the same and that this isn't a new thing but was also the case in the 1940s.

However, I'm in danger of going way too far down this rabbit hole and I don't want to de-rail this excellent TL, so unless Fatboy Coxy asks for more information, I'm going to stop commenting on this particular subject, despite the interesting discussion (thanks everyone).
 

Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
And so a meeting between Lord Gort, Phillips and Layton has been held, which while not what could be considered earth shattering, it basically decided that another meeting needed to be held. It has allowed the two principals to feel each other out, and get a measure of what was going to be expected to happen. Phillips who like Gort and Park has been granted audience with his Majesty MacArthur, an additional got to meet his opposite number Hart, is just beginning to realise just how complex the situation he is in. While the situation in Malaya is understandable, and he is well aquatinted with the normal routine of committees and papers, the American situation is something that he just has no experience of. While we as outsiders know that he has very little time to make decisions , he does however have longer time than he did IOTL, with a far better overall command structure. Lord Gort and Keith Park, have despite the shortages of men and equipment, made the best of what is available, but most of all established a sound and robust command structure. I personally agree with Logan 2879, that deploying the three Danae class cruisers with four destroyers as a separate force to act in an anti invasion role, would be a good idea. These seven ships would be a significant problem for the Japanese invasion force, while staying close to the coast and thus able to receive limited air cover. As for the remaining units, they should remain in Singapore for now until the Japanese intentions are clear, which allows the remaining light forces including the Dutch to hunt down the Japanese submarines. Which alongside the Japanese bombers are a threat to the British capital ships, and need to be accounted for before the capital ships set sail.

RR.
 

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
What I am seeing is that Admiral Phillips might divided Force Z in two groups. In one group would be Fifth cruiser Division (HMS Durban, Dragon, Danae) escorted by 4 destroyers (Scout, Thanet, Tenedos, and Stronghold). This group could be position at the landing points. The second group would be the main group, ready to sail if the other group needs support.
Hi Logan2879, I like your thinking.
 

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
The thing is that a chart might be the most up-to-date but still have areas on it which haven't been surveyed for years or decades. I used a chart some years ago which had been updated the previous year but some of the depths on it were from soundings taken in the early 19th century, so nearly 200 years previously. I knew this because UK Admiralty charts have a diagram showing when each part of the chart was surveyed; I assume other nations' have the same and that this isn't a new thing but was also the case in the 1940s.

However, I'm in danger of going way too far down this rabbit hole and I don't want to de-rail this excellent TL, so unless Fatboy Coxy asks for more information, I'm going to stop commenting on this particular subject, despite the interesting discussion (thanks everyone).
Hi FriendlyGhost, no I like the debate. Just to add to it Boise had a draft of 23 ft, the two biggest ships the Dutch had were the Java class cruisers, and the Soerabaja coastal defence ship, were both only 20 feet, so an un-notice reef might have escaped their notice. But I'm comfortable with Boise being damaged on a reef, and it highlights the dangers for Force Z operating in Dutch waters.
Doing some research in a book about the survival of the Marblehead found out that when the Boise hit the coral head, the Captain of the Marblehead headed the Board of Inquiry, who found the Boise's Captain clear of any blame , placing the cause on inadequate charts. Sadly the Captain was still relieved.
The damage was reported as between the keel and bilge keel, 116 foot overall, with an @20 foot gash.
Hi Butchpfd, until this detail you have provided, I was resigned to accepting that Boise would have to return to the USA, expecting the gash in her side may well have flooded some of the engineering areas, causing further internal damage. However if its along the bottom, then it should only expose the bilges. Now a repair at Singapore is a possibility, provided it's not under air continuous air attack. And I don't think it should take too long, the work in the USA included upgrades and modifications to the ship as well as the hull repair.
 
This issu b
The thing is that a chart might be the most up-to-date but still have areas on it which haven't been surveyed for years or decades. I used a chart some years ago which had been updated the previous year but some of the depths on it were from soundings taken in the early 19th century, so nearly 200 years previously. I knew this because UK Admiralty charts have a diagram showing when each part of the chart was surveyed; I assume other nations' have the same and that this isn't a new thing but was also the case in the 1940s.

However, I'm in danger of going way too far down this rabbit hole and I don't want to de-rail this excellent TL, so unless Fatboy Coxy asks for more information, I'm going to stop commenting on this particular subject, despite the interesting discussion (thanks everyone).
Boils down to lack of language communication, training, and operating in areas not normally traversed by larger warships.
 
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