I always heard they made a cut in their tail muscle so they couldn't raise the tail to bray. Oh well just another way of getting fixed.
Malaya What If
- Thread starter Fatboy Coxy
- Start date
An account of devoicing mules and horses for the Chindits:
burmastarmemorial.org
Mules' Voice Chords Cut - Len Reynolds - Burma Star Memorial Fund
By Pte Len AC0Reynolds, 1st Btn Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire Regt, 16 Column - 14th Brigade Special Force, Chindits Called up 18.1.1940. Discharged 25.11.45 Overseas to India 16.6.42. On arrival at Bombay, Deolali after few weeks was sent to Chittagong/Cox Bazaar Monsoon season to await J…
burmastarmemorial.org
Grew up spending my summers on a Florida ranch. Yeah, mules are louder than you'd think. If one wondered off, all we had to do was honk a truck horn and if he or she was within a couple of miles they'd bray right back, we'd hear 'em just fine and could get a rough direction too. Definitely NOT a trait you'd want on a jungle battlefield!
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Apologies you had no updates this week, I only got back from invading Normandy last night, was on a guided tour of the battlefield, absolutely fabulous! Normal service will be resumed tomorrow.
MWI 41042921 The American Dutch British Conference
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
1941, Tuesday 29 April;
Vice Admiral Conrad Helfrich, Rear Admiral Karel Doorman and Captain Johan van Staveren, Helfrich’s Chief of Staff, sat taking drinks, on a shaded veranda, overlooking the dockyards of the Oedjoeng Naval Base. Helfrich and Staveren had come to update Doorman on the recently completed American Dutch British Conference in Singapore, which had run from the 21 to 27 April, to discuss mutual support in the Far East. For the first time the US had fully participated, not just attended, and so that was a step forward, but frustratingly there was still no firm military commitment from the US towards Dutch East Indies security. However, the British were much more open to working together with the Dutch and had suggested a number of initiatives which would benefit them greatly.
“So, Conrad, the rumour mill is already at work, we all now serve under the Royal Navy, only the army stays at home.” Doorman spoke with a smile on his face, but with more than a note of concern in his voice.
“Ha ha Karel, someone’s been on the Heineken again, I think. Yes, there is a commitment to place some of our ships under their command, but Johan did well at the conference for us, we have some gains as well. We have agreed the Royal Navy will exercise strategical direction over our naval forces excluding those used solely for local defence. But in the main, our forces remain in our own waters. We have agreed to release one light cruiser and two destroyers to a strike force, to be assembled later in the year, and at the same time, two submarines will also operate out of Singapore, as part of a Royal Naval Flotilla, but Karel, before you protest, hear me out. The British will supply us with 30 of their ASDIC sets for detecting submarines, will install them in our ships, at their cost, will train the operators at their ASW simulator in Singapore, and then hold joint exercises with both our ships and submarines to improve our ASW tactics.
The timetable is 12 months, completing by 1st June 1942, and while we train with them, they will lend us a light cruiser, it will be a D or E class, and a number of Australian corvettes will work in our waters as well, all under our control. Our Naval air force retains responsibility for maritime reconnaissance as before. Helfrich had been watching Doorman’s face as he spoke and could see some of the tension drain away.
Doorman spoke softly “So they’re going to help us Conrad, not just bleed us”
“Yes Karel, they realise we protect Singapore from the East, South and West, they can’t let us fall and hope to hold Singapore. There’s some talk of Australian troops and aircraft being stationed on some of our western islands and redeploying some Indian troops if the Japanese don’t attack Malaya directly. We are going to exchange more Liaison Officers, and those joint exercises will be about how operational control works for us all, not just ASW, so you’ll have some experience of commanding British and Australian ships. There will be a conference of signal officers held shortly in Singapore to discuss some of the operational issues we all expect.
Captain van Staveren spoke “I can tell you a little more about the Australian commitments. They are committed to building a large number of the Bathurst class corvettes, and will deploy some in our waters as well as under British control around Singapore and the Indian Ocean. They will be sending the whole of the 8th Australian Division to Malaya, and raising some additional units as well. But until they have found some other forces to provide small local garrisons in Rabaul, and the airfields in Timor and Ambon, the 27th Brigade stays in Darwin. The RAAF is undergoing a massive expansion, with more squadrons promised to Malaya, as well as home defence.
Karel Doorman swirled the gin at the bottom of his glass, and then drank it back “So, the British got ships from us, and troops and aircraft from the Australians, were they happy with that?”
Staveren spoke again “They got a little more than that, the other Dominions have all promised a step up in aid, and we might benefit a little from that too. But they are clearly as frustrated as us, with the Americans”.
“So, what about the Americans, Johan, what will Admiral Hart do?”
“Ah well Hart has told us what he would like to do, stay in the Philippines until he’s kicked out, and then fall back. When the British ask him where, he says Singapore, when we ask, its Soerabaja. He also talks about loaning a division of 4 destroyers and maybe a light cruiser to the strike force. But everything is dependent on the whims of the White House, or even more importantly Admiral King.”
Helfrich leaned forward and poured a measure of gin into each of their cut glass tumblers, before adding a couple of ice cubes and topping it all off with tonic water.
“To be fair, the British are doing all they can, and the Americans are agreeing to all our purchases, its only delivery dates that are a problem. Both the Army and Naval Air Forces will be getting the bombers, seaplanes, fighters, trainers and comms aircraft they have ordered, and although some of it has been delayed, there will be a steady flow. The British will train as many pilots and aircrew through their Empire Air Training Scheme as we want and are releasing some of the planned Brewster Buffalos they were going to receive, to us. And later they hope to be able to offer some Hurricanes. But a real plus here is they will provide and operate two radar stations initially, one for Batavia and one here in Soerabaja, with others promised, admittedly up to 12 months wait.”
Doorman, lent forward, and looking over his gin glass, said softly “How does Poorten come out of this?”
Helfrich smiled, “I can answer that” he lowered his voice “Poorten is getting the arms and ammunition he wants, as well as a great deal of other equipment, but Berenschot will not be giving him the 70% share of the conscripted Dutch, the army will only get 50%, and Berenschot will allow conscripts at the last-minute to volunteer for the other arms. Poorten is furious, says we’re taking all the talent.”
“Conrad, I’ve seen some of that talent we’re taking, and other than numbers, he’s not missing much. All the young guy’s volunteer to be pilots, unless they already have an interest in sailing, they don’t want us anymore than they want the army. We’re all struggling to expand. The deal sounds about right, if the Americans and British can’t hold the Japanese in the Philippines and Malaya, we won’t be able to hold when the Japanese get here either, but perhaps a little help from us might make all the difference for them, so I say, Proost” and the three clinked glasses before downing their drinks.
Vice Admiral Conrad Helfrich, Rear Admiral Karel Doorman and Captain Johan van Staveren, Helfrich’s Chief of Staff, sat taking drinks, on a shaded veranda, overlooking the dockyards of the Oedjoeng Naval Base. Helfrich and Staveren had come to update Doorman on the recently completed American Dutch British Conference in Singapore, which had run from the 21 to 27 April, to discuss mutual support in the Far East. For the first time the US had fully participated, not just attended, and so that was a step forward, but frustratingly there was still no firm military commitment from the US towards Dutch East Indies security. However, the British were much more open to working together with the Dutch and had suggested a number of initiatives which would benefit them greatly.
“So, Conrad, the rumour mill is already at work, we all now serve under the Royal Navy, only the army stays at home.” Doorman spoke with a smile on his face, but with more than a note of concern in his voice.
“Ha ha Karel, someone’s been on the Heineken again, I think. Yes, there is a commitment to place some of our ships under their command, but Johan did well at the conference for us, we have some gains as well. We have agreed the Royal Navy will exercise strategical direction over our naval forces excluding those used solely for local defence. But in the main, our forces remain in our own waters. We have agreed to release one light cruiser and two destroyers to a strike force, to be assembled later in the year, and at the same time, two submarines will also operate out of Singapore, as part of a Royal Naval Flotilla, but Karel, before you protest, hear me out. The British will supply us with 30 of their ASDIC sets for detecting submarines, will install them in our ships, at their cost, will train the operators at their ASW simulator in Singapore, and then hold joint exercises with both our ships and submarines to improve our ASW tactics.
The timetable is 12 months, completing by 1st June 1942, and while we train with them, they will lend us a light cruiser, it will be a D or E class, and a number of Australian corvettes will work in our waters as well, all under our control. Our Naval air force retains responsibility for maritime reconnaissance as before. Helfrich had been watching Doorman’s face as he spoke and could see some of the tension drain away.
Doorman spoke softly “So they’re going to help us Conrad, not just bleed us”
“Yes Karel, they realise we protect Singapore from the East, South and West, they can’t let us fall and hope to hold Singapore. There’s some talk of Australian troops and aircraft being stationed on some of our western islands and redeploying some Indian troops if the Japanese don’t attack Malaya directly. We are going to exchange more Liaison Officers, and those joint exercises will be about how operational control works for us all, not just ASW, so you’ll have some experience of commanding British and Australian ships. There will be a conference of signal officers held shortly in Singapore to discuss some of the operational issues we all expect.
Captain van Staveren spoke “I can tell you a little more about the Australian commitments. They are committed to building a large number of the Bathurst class corvettes, and will deploy some in our waters as well as under British control around Singapore and the Indian Ocean. They will be sending the whole of the 8th Australian Division to Malaya, and raising some additional units as well. But until they have found some other forces to provide small local garrisons in Rabaul, and the airfields in Timor and Ambon, the 27th Brigade stays in Darwin. The RAAF is undergoing a massive expansion, with more squadrons promised to Malaya, as well as home defence.
Karel Doorman swirled the gin at the bottom of his glass, and then drank it back “So, the British got ships from us, and troops and aircraft from the Australians, were they happy with that?”
Staveren spoke again “They got a little more than that, the other Dominions have all promised a step up in aid, and we might benefit a little from that too. But they are clearly as frustrated as us, with the Americans”.
“So, what about the Americans, Johan, what will Admiral Hart do?”
“Ah well Hart has told us what he would like to do, stay in the Philippines until he’s kicked out, and then fall back. When the British ask him where, he says Singapore, when we ask, its Soerabaja. He also talks about loaning a division of 4 destroyers and maybe a light cruiser to the strike force. But everything is dependent on the whims of the White House, or even more importantly Admiral King.”
Helfrich leaned forward and poured a measure of gin into each of their cut glass tumblers, before adding a couple of ice cubes and topping it all off with tonic water.
“To be fair, the British are doing all they can, and the Americans are agreeing to all our purchases, its only delivery dates that are a problem. Both the Army and Naval Air Forces will be getting the bombers, seaplanes, fighters, trainers and comms aircraft they have ordered, and although some of it has been delayed, there will be a steady flow. The British will train as many pilots and aircrew through their Empire Air Training Scheme as we want and are releasing some of the planned Brewster Buffalos they were going to receive, to us. And later they hope to be able to offer some Hurricanes. But a real plus here is they will provide and operate two radar stations initially, one for Batavia and one here in Soerabaja, with others promised, admittedly up to 12 months wait.”
Doorman, lent forward, and looking over his gin glass, said softly “How does Poorten come out of this?”
Helfrich smiled, “I can answer that” he lowered his voice “Poorten is getting the arms and ammunition he wants, as well as a great deal of other equipment, but Berenschot will not be giving him the 70% share of the conscripted Dutch, the army will only get 50%, and Berenschot will allow conscripts at the last-minute to volunteer for the other arms. Poorten is furious, says we’re taking all the talent.”
“Conrad, I’ve seen some of that talent we’re taking, and other than numbers, he’s not missing much. All the young guy’s volunteer to be pilots, unless they already have an interest in sailing, they don’t want us anymore than they want the army. We’re all struggling to expand. The deal sounds about right, if the Americans and British can’t hold the Japanese in the Philippines and Malaya, we won’t be able to hold when the Japanese get here either, but perhaps a little help from us might make all the difference for them, so I say, Proost” and the three clinked glasses before downing their drinks.
This is very astute. It all seems to be coming together. The problem they have is that their timetable is much slower than the Japanese one. Mainly due to necessity, rather than complacency, but still, it all feels too little, too late. Way better than OTL, of course, but still
I agree, however it has to be to fit this storyline. It is a "what if", not a wank. After all "too little, too late" describes the first 6 months of the Pacific War very succinctly. But perhaps here in TTL it will be a little bit less of a "too little".
Last edited:
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Thank you HJ Tulp, for pointing that out, I am assured the Dutch will be back on the Jenever in double quick timeNice update! However, I certainly doubt if the Dutch officers would drink gin if a good glass of jenever would be available
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
I also have to say there are some real gentlemen reading this storyline, one of whom nicely pointed out in a PM, to spare my blushes, that Admiral King wasn't in charge in the Pacific at this time, he wrote
If I may mention, the US Fleet seniority system before Pearl Harbor was:
1: CINCUS Adm. Kimmel who was also CinCPACFLT;
2: CinCLANTFLT King;
3: Asiatic Fleet Adm. Hart. I don't know if Adm. King could be directly involved in an Asiatic Fleet issue. The CNO, Adm. Stark, had resurrected the career of Adm. King in Fall 1940. His leash may have been a very short one.
This is a clear error on my part, there is no early movement among the US Admirals, so my apologies. I won't edit the storyline, I hope this will suffice, and my thanks to Nevarinemex for the PM.
If I may mention, the US Fleet seniority system before Pearl Harbor was:
1: CINCUS Adm. Kimmel who was also CinCPACFLT;
2: CinCLANTFLT King;
3: Asiatic Fleet Adm. Hart. I don't know if Adm. King could be directly involved in an Asiatic Fleet issue. The CNO, Adm. Stark, had resurrected the career of Adm. King in Fall 1940. His leash may have been a very short one.
This is a clear error on my part, there is no early movement among the US Admirals, so my apologies. I won't edit the storyline, I hope this will suffice, and my thanks to Nevarinemex for the PM.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Not quite, they know what they want to be able to do, but this takes time. At the very top there is good communications, but not so much at lower levels, while British and Dutch tactical units are not able to work together. A major barrier is the different languages, in those days few Dutch could speak English, while 80 old years later on, still only a few British speak Dutch!
MWI 41043018 A Steady Trickle
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
1941, Wednesday 30 April;
The small trooper, crept into the Johore Straits just before nightfall, led by the C class cruiser, who with a last signal, bade goodbye and dropped anchor, while the trooper continued on to the Naval Base. She had come from Bombay, where about 100 service personnel trans shipped across from another trooper which had detached from convoy WS 6X at Mombasa. Aboard were an assortment of personnel, a few staff officers, some recently trained ECO’s posted to the Indian Regts in Malaya, five infantry training instructors for the Malay and Chinese regimental training camps, a dozen radar technicians, who were part of a small RAF draft, an RN draft and a small party of Wrens. These would all be disembarked in the morning.
Other recent UK arrivals had been a few cargo ships loaded with the materials of war, and more specifically the needs of Malaya. The numerous crated aircraft amounted to 20 Fairey Battle Mk IIs, 4 Battle Tugs, 6 Vildebeest Mk III’s, 4 Swordfish and 2 De Haviland Dominie’s, a military version of the Dragon Rapide. Quite a number of specialist vehicles had also arrived, AEC Matadors, in gun tractor, bowser, flatbed, recovery and Cole crane versions, a handful of the much sort after Scammell Pioneers and a couple of Humber Snipe staff cars. Other equipment included a few ASDIC sets for the Navy, thirty 3-inch AA guns, released from home defence stocks, with their associated predicted fire instruments, 4-wheel trailer platforms and a lot of ammunition.
The crated aircraft were all going to Seletar for assembly, before being flown out to the various airfields they would operate from. Likewise, a reasonable number of the specialist vehicles would be given to the RAF to support operations. The gun tractors were for artillery units, the RASC and RAOC would split the Scammell Pioneer’s. The 3-inch AA guns and associated equipment and munitions were all given to the newly forming Indian AA Regts.
The few ASDIC sets provided, would be installed in some of the requisitioned patrol vessels. This meant a period in dry dock, as the equipment had to be fitted through the bottom of the hull. Once the hull work was completed, the ship was moved out of dry dock to finish the installation. There would also be the provision of a separate operator’s room, ideally located close to the bridge, power supply and wiring between them all to be completed. There would be a steady flow of ASDIC sets, a few at a time, coming from the UK each month.
Some of those merchant ships wouldn’t be returning to the UK, they were some of the slower ships, or foreign flagged, chartered at a high premium for sailing in war zones, that would now be sailing the Pacific, Singapore – Canada route.
The small trooper, crept into the Johore Straits just before nightfall, led by the C class cruiser, who with a last signal, bade goodbye and dropped anchor, while the trooper continued on to the Naval Base. She had come from Bombay, where about 100 service personnel trans shipped across from another trooper which had detached from convoy WS 6X at Mombasa. Aboard were an assortment of personnel, a few staff officers, some recently trained ECO’s posted to the Indian Regts in Malaya, five infantry training instructors for the Malay and Chinese regimental training camps, a dozen radar technicians, who were part of a small RAF draft, an RN draft and a small party of Wrens. These would all be disembarked in the morning.
Other recent UK arrivals had been a few cargo ships loaded with the materials of war, and more specifically the needs of Malaya. The numerous crated aircraft amounted to 20 Fairey Battle Mk IIs, 4 Battle Tugs, 6 Vildebeest Mk III’s, 4 Swordfish and 2 De Haviland Dominie’s, a military version of the Dragon Rapide. Quite a number of specialist vehicles had also arrived, AEC Matadors, in gun tractor, bowser, flatbed, recovery and Cole crane versions, a handful of the much sort after Scammell Pioneers and a couple of Humber Snipe staff cars. Other equipment included a few ASDIC sets for the Navy, thirty 3-inch AA guns, released from home defence stocks, with their associated predicted fire instruments, 4-wheel trailer platforms and a lot of ammunition.
The crated aircraft were all going to Seletar for assembly, before being flown out to the various airfields they would operate from. Likewise, a reasonable number of the specialist vehicles would be given to the RAF to support operations. The gun tractors were for artillery units, the RASC and RAOC would split the Scammell Pioneer’s. The 3-inch AA guns and associated equipment and munitions were all given to the newly forming Indian AA Regts.
The few ASDIC sets provided, would be installed in some of the requisitioned patrol vessels. This meant a period in dry dock, as the equipment had to be fitted through the bottom of the hull. Once the hull work was completed, the ship was moved out of dry dock to finish the installation. There would also be the provision of a separate operator’s room, ideally located close to the bridge, power supply and wiring between them all to be completed. There would be a steady flow of ASDIC sets, a few at a time, coming from the UK each month.
Some of those merchant ships wouldn’t be returning to the UK, they were some of the slower ships, or foreign flagged, chartered at a high premium for sailing in war zones, that would now be sailing the Pacific, Singapore – Canada route.
Perhaps the Anglo-Dutch cooperation might be a bit too late, but there is still over a half a year until war starts. British and Dutch ships will operate in peacetime together, in separate Task forces yes, but that is still a considerable improvement over OTL. Nobody expects NATO levels of multinational cooperation, but they will be able to communicate with eachother and cooperate to a certain degree.
Morale is also a factor. I can not imagine it was too high in the DEI, with Homeland occupied and they being left on their own. With British promise of help, that might change. I mean, if there are RN Warships operating alongsode yours, with high level talks, possibly with USA, new equipment, weapons, aircraft, ground troops... It all adds up, and maybe KNIL manages to hold on in some places, due to knowledge/hope that reinforcements exist and are on their way. I mean, if they manage to get radars operational and operators trained to a sufficient degree...
In the peniultimate chapter, these discussions about conscription percentages and the like, could we get a somewhat more detailed explanation?
I mean, Dutch by themselves could make Japananese plans much costlier and longer to realize then planned. Provided a bit of good leadership, motivation and luck. Hopefully something trickles over to them as well, denying the Japanese access to the oil fields as long as possible would certainly help.
Morale is also a factor. I can not imagine it was too high in the DEI, with Homeland occupied and they being left on their own. With British promise of help, that might change. I mean, if there are RN Warships operating alongsode yours, with high level talks, possibly with USA, new equipment, weapons, aircraft, ground troops... It all adds up, and maybe KNIL manages to hold on in some places, due to knowledge/hope that reinforcements exist and are on their way. I mean, if they manage to get radars operational and operators trained to a sufficient degree...
In the peniultimate chapter, these discussions about conscription percentages and the like, could we get a somewhat more detailed explanation?
I mean, Dutch by themselves could make Japananese plans much costlier and longer to realize then planned. Provided a bit of good leadership, motivation and luck. Hopefully something trickles over to them as well, denying the Japanese access to the oil fields as long as possible would certainly help.
I am enjoying this timeline. I do not know if I missed this or not. My memory was that the Dutch had a very successful plan for using their submarines in the Pacific, but it was changed with a new Admiral. Is my memory correct?
With the Blitz raging? Two weeks later, after Hitler called off the Blitz, such a transfer would be more plausible.
One thing that's been missing from this otherwise brilliant narrative is any awareness on the part of the British in Malaya of the desperate situation in Britain. They would understand that any requests they make must be considered in view of home defense needs and the disruption caused by the Blitz. And men there would be discussing the news from home, and worrying about their friends and relatives.
And they (and the Dutch, in the previous posting) seem too definite about future Japanese attack. The Japanese themselves had not yet made the decision to invade Malaya, Borneo, or the DEI. Nor had Japan moved into southern Indochina; that happened in July 1941, and triggered the US-led oil embargo.
@Nevarinemex
The Dutch doctrine of the interbellum - which was a doctrine centered around group attacks by submarines - had a very high potential of doing serious damage on a Japanese invasion force, at least much higher than what eventually happened OTL. It is true that Helfrich was the finally nail on it's coffin but the tables were turning from 1935. This was mainly driven by inter-service rivalry - as the naval brass wanted to protect their cruiser force in times of defense cut-backs - and IMHO also the simple fact that naval men intrinsically prefer big surface vessels over small submarines.
But they are only making requests after all. It's up to the command back in Britain to decide what the home based armed forces there can spare or not. I wouldn't think the officers in Malaya would feel guilty over the paltry trickle they're receiving. The listing of planes sent is dismal. Other then the Battles the rest are fit only for patrolling or training. And the Battle? Malaya needs more Hurricanes.
But at least they received the beautiful Dragon Rapide. de Haviland must have designed their planes with an artist's eye.
de Havilland Dragon Rapide - Wikipedia
Last edited:
